Thursday, December 14, 2006

chinese sexism

I get emails every few days in Mandarin from Chinese engineers, asking for career advice. Sometimes the things they say reveal such a culture of sexism...


在没看到你的介绍之前,我对女性从事计算机行业还是有看法的,看过你的经历之后。我的看法改变了许多。从此以后也不会歧视女性朋友从事计算机行业了。

Before reading your bio, I had prejudices against women in the field of computer science. After learning of your experiences, my views have changed a lot. From now on, I will no longer look down on female friends entering computer science.


Yay! One down, how many more to go!


看了你的介绍 你真的是个厉害的女人!了不起! 原来女人也可以这么强!

Read your bio. You are truly a capable woman! Impressive! It turns out women can also be this strong too!


Not to turn this into a gender-war battle issue, but this reminds me of a Bobby Fischer quote. He usually played the Black pieces during chess. "The turning point in my career came with the realization that Black could play to win instead of just steering for equality."



惭愧啊
堂堂一个大老爷们不如一个弱小女子
上帝真是不公平 :(

sigh
so ashamed
I'm a big tough man but can't compare to this frail little female
God is so unfair :(


Yes, God is so unfair to you big tough men.

19 comments:

Anonymous said...

由于你的父母遗传给你了很好的基因,再精心地培育。所以造就了你今天的成就。
由于你是中国人,我也可以沾那么一点儿光彩。
百度CEO是李彦宏 应该算得上和你是郎才女貌,只是他年纪比你大很多,又早早地结婚生子。
但是,中国之大,它的优秀儿女遍及全球。
so,hope u can find the smart guy as same as u.

x said...

Pssh... You can do better than the CEO of Baidu :P

I am Chinese also. To add my own encounter: during a recent job decision, a family friend mentioned thoughtfully, "Hmmm, it's probably better for a woman to be an APM [than an engineer]" He was not trying to offend, but sigh...

I blame Confucius for most of this, though.

Dazhi said...

i think everyone's at least a little bit racist and sexist. but our culture in the US forbids us from showing it. but we all think it... btw, are you going to be around the bay area 12/20-1/1? i'll be back visiting family....

ilker_nadi said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ilker_nadi said...

Regarding your example of Fischer, you probably don't know his view of women. "They're all weak, all women. They're stupid compared to men. They shouldn't play chess, you know. They're like beginners. They lose every single game against a man. There isn't a woman player in the world I can't give knight-odds to and still beat." Oddly enough Fischer's record of youngest grandmaster was broken in 1991 by Judit Polgar, the strongest female chess player ever

Anonymous said...

One thing I like about being a big tough man is that I have more mass. Sounds like an oxymoron, but when colliding with the environment during sports more momentum is fun! I'm thinking snow, waves, branches, etc.

This joy could have unintended consequences as I get older.

hellowode said...

so,hope u can find the smart guy as same as u.
By Anonymous, at 12/14/2006 4:54 AM

这个家伙的留言让人呕吐,
Niniane看到他提到李彦宏会不会呕吐呢?

Anonymous said...

ouch.
I remember once I was in a computational theory class, I can't remember what we were talking about (yes, I am that old) and I came up with a nice little theorem relating to what the professor was talking about. I brought it up in class and the professor's comment was, "Interesting intuition!" "um, I have the proof worked out here, if you want to see it," I said.

Crickets.

yeah, I was the only woman in class.

Good times!

Anonymous said...

Robin Li: Pioneer of China’s Information Superhighway
http://english.cctv.com/program/upclose/20051226/100722.shtml

Anonymous said...

The quote from Bobby is actually different by only one word, but it completely alters the meaning:

"The turning point in my career came with the realization that Black *should* play to win instead of just steering for equality."

It's not just a possibility, but a moral imperative :)

Anonymous said...

In America, the same sexism occurrs, but we cover it with rose colored paint.

Men will pretend you are their equal because political correctness mandates it, but behind your back they will do quite the opposite.

Personally, I prefer the in your face "sexism" than the irritating, fake American political correctness.

Anonymous said...

公主,你沒什么大不了的,但是你的头非常大 (literally)。

Anonymous said...

yeah, now that you said it, her head does look big, especially with all that hair...

Niniane said...

re: "头非常大 (literally)"

没办法, 生下来就这样。

Anonymous said...

Hey Niniane,

Just wondering if you felt in your observations that women in general are equally adept at tech as men? I mean I've come across a lot of excellent female programmers, but on average I've found that women are either clueless or don't quite care about tech - or at least the guts of it.

For example, I always pull my hair out when explaining to my female friends how to publish a web-page... explaining what HTML is, FTP etc.

I think we're being PC if we say that everything and everyone is equal.

IMHO tech seems more suited to the male psyche ALTHOUGH there are some obvious exceptions like yourself.

Anonymous said...

IMHO tech seems more suited to the male psyche ALTHOUGH there are some obvious exceptions like yourself.

You are sexist. F you.

Michael said...

IN MAINLAND CHINA – in cities:

• If a girl is still single when she's 30, everyone think there is something wrong with her. The older women start to laugh at her and look down at her. The men will try to "sleep with her" (but not to merry her) because they think she is desperate.

• Women older than 35 years of age have nearly 0 chance of getting a job, as it is believed that women after 35 are too "slow" and “lazy” (lack of energy), including themselves. They can, however, become maids or sex workers.

• It is believed that women are less capable than men in most aspects, except spreading gossips, raising kids and spending money.

• If a woman chooses to be a career woman, she’d better has a father/family that is powerful enough to protect her, for this male-dominating society hates outstanding women. Everyone (include all men and older women) will try to push her down to hell, unless she pays them well. Once she has no more to give, everyone wants her to go to hell. It is a sin for a woman to be superior. Only men are allowed to be superior, in the past 5 thousand years.

• A man (that is NOT equally outstanding) who marries to an outstanding career woman usually aims for her money. He would love to take her money, divorce, then marry to a much younger, better-looking and obedient girl, and be her hero. If he is still with that old, ugly and non-selfless wife, most likely he still needs her.

• A man (that IS equally outstanding) who marries to an outstanding career woman usually aims for his face, his children (DNA) and higher social status, if not her father’s connection, or her family assets.

• A Chinese man needs to find a wife to cook his dinner, does his laundry, give birth to his descendants (better a boy), raise his descendant, looks after his parents (and her parents), pays his bills…

• Only rich men can afford “looking after” (financially supports) other women other than his wife.

• Poorer men cheat girls and dump them. The more girls he cheats, the higher honor he has among his friends. If he can get her pregnant and abortion, top honor.

• Although every man’s secret dream is to find a virgin for wife, that doesn’t stop him cheating virgins and dump them.

• Girls just have two options: be bad or be good.

• Bad girls see themselves the “westernized” new generation. They enjoy sex life. They enjoy being able to take the lead in relationship. They are not good at contraception.

• Good girls still want to find a husband and start a family. If a man cheats her, she will revenge, if she still hasn’t killed herself yet. They are not good at contraception.

• Generally speaking, Chinese male want to take the lead in relationship. In the chasing phase (that is, when he hasn’t scored), he would do anything to find out what she likes, and please her. He will definitely tell a few lies to impress her.

• A decent man will marry to his girlfriend, given that his parents are happy with the girl and her family.

• An average guy does not want to marry to every girlfriend of his. But if he can’t get the girl, a bad guy might kill her. The average guy would keep chasing her until he gets her, then dump her. If he still cannot get her, he’ll get another girl, and dump her.

• Except being in the chasing phase, Chinese male generally don’t care about women’s feelings. Women can cry, women can threaten, women can die, as long as he lives well. If he needs her co-operation, he can always come around with some good stories and make her happy. The point is, she has to be useful.

• Nearly all husbands want affairs, better they are other people’s wives. But if his own wife has an affair, he would really want to kill her, and still feels hurt afterwards. To ease his pain, he would try to have affairs with more other people’s wives.

• Husbands normally don’t worry about divorce, unless he is financially dependent on his wife plus that he has no access to her money, or he loves his children, or, he still loves her.

• Rich men generally do not worry about divorce, as their wives can hardly get what she deserves. She may need to pay her life for that and still won’t have what she deserves. Husbands often transfer their assets well before divorce.

• Chinese tradition does not like the idea to allow women to be financially independent or educated, for that would make them “choosy”, which results in men having to “improve” themselves.

• A Chinese woman can only enjoy a good life in the period of time that they married to a wealthy man before he has an affair, or dump her, or dies.

• If the rich husband dies, his family members will do all kind of mean things to kick her away from her husband’s house, and take away all her husband’s money. Because money should be kept within the family. Wives are people from other families. Only the children (better male) belong to the family.

• If a girl does not want to have children, she is not likely to find a man who has never married. She can, however, marry to a man that has children in his previous life. His children, however, most likely hate step-mothers, as a general rule.

• If a girl does plan to have children but failed to do so, her husband would most likely to divorce her and marry another woman, with no regret or care.

• A wife who gives birth to a girl in a city may not face divorce, but she would most likely to face an unhappy and abusing mother-in-law, unless her parents are richer than her husband’s family.

Exceptions:
IN MAINLAND CHINA – in cities:


• The large number of Chinese men in good nature, who cannot bear leaving their lovers in pain. Unfortunately, these are not the vast majority.
• The large number of Chinese men from “good” families. That is, whose parents and grandparents are well educated, or have good natures. Unfortunately, most of these families were destroyed in the past few decades.
• Shanghai men work, do shopping, cook dinners, does laundry, and still try to please their wives, who spent most of their spare time playing cards, chatting with female friends.

Observation updated: 2008

Anonymous said...

In Hong Kong

• Men from Hong Kong believe that “a man marries a woman for the purpose to spoil her”, compare with the mainlanders “a man marries to a woman for the purpose to use her”.
• Women from Hong Kong have no problems become full-time housewives. A wealthy man would not want his wife to work after marriage.
• A man in romance is a real gentleman. He admires the girl, treat her nicely, takes her to restaurants, buy her jewel, and satisfy all her ridiculous requests. He remains a gentleman even after she dumps him, after all he has done for her.
• A man from Hong Kong is often generous to his lover, as that shows he is rich. The same rule may not stand if his lover is from mainland China, or Vietnam. She definitely is not worthy as much as a Hong Kong woman, because she has less choice. The same thing holds in employment relationships.
• A married man does everything to make his wife and her mother happy. He is a good provider for the family.
• A married Hong Kong man will definitely have affairs, unless he is poor, or he is still in love, or he is too nice, or there is something wrong with him. Chinese men see their women as trophies – the more, the better, especially after marriage, because it proves that they are rich. Marriage does not end a triangle relationship. Marriage is the beginning of a triangle relationship, as you have a wife that has difficulties to dump you. It is safe now to chase after another woman. It does not matter whether the husband goes to church or not.
• Some wives, are aware of their husbands’ affair. However, most of them choose not to mention it, as long as their husbands treat them well.
• The rest, are often shocked by their husbands’ affair. Chinese women, after all, were brainwashed to believe that the only happy life a woman have is a loving husband and a clever/obedient child. Husband’s betrayal does destroy her life and happiness forever.
• In the case a husband wants a divorce (and marry to his girlfriend), he most likely would be willing to pay her the amount request by law, unless he is very wealthy.
• A really wealthy man would not allow a woman (once his wife) to take nearly half of his assets away from his family. She won’t win in count anyway, no worries.
• A girl that is going to marry to the son of a billionaire knows that she is supposed to have many children. Her future father-in-law wants his grandchildren to help with his businesses. The children will be raised to become lawyers, accountants, doctors, etc. She would live a luxury life if she obeys. She knows that her husband would have affairs, but that is all right because she is now upper-class. It is the best choice a girl can ever have.
• Most Hong Kong billionaires are still very old-fashioned and peasant-minded, unless English is their first language, and that they cannot speak Chinese at all, or that they criticize Chinese culture. The old-fashioned Hong Kong wealthy men still believe daughters may not inhere a cent from family’s assets. The best they would do for their daughters are providing education, so that daughters can marry men from upper class, which will give them “face” and their daughters’ financial securities.
• Just because men are good supporters of their wives does not mean they treats other women the same way. Chinese men treat their wives well because they NEED to keep their wives healthy and happy. Mistresses, however, are there for pleasure. They can be dismissed. A Hong Kong mistress does not cause trouble after she is dismissed. Her man pays her well. Unlike mainlanders, men want everything free. Oh no, a mainlander man (many of them) wants his wife sacrifice everything, and take her family’s assets, and sleep with her younger sister, and his wife leave him quietly, or both sisters serves him and only him forever.
• Hong Kong women soon find out marriage is no guarantee to happiness. The well-educated women generally choose not to get married. Many of the rest find it more beneficial to become a mistress, for she would start to own cash, Jewry, a car, an apartment (if she is lucky). She does not have to do housework, or raise children, or worry about her family being ruined by any other women. She can remain beautiful and healthy, away from housework. These girls believe that “a smart girl does not seek equality with guys”

Observations updated: 2008
Michael

Anonymous said...

Michael:

Chinese males in Overseas (1)

1. Singapore
• Singaporeans are known by their higher education level and multi-linguistic skills.
• Most Singapore Chinese speak better English than Chinese. The Singapore Chinese as a whole are 80% westernized and 20% Chinese. Compare with Hong Kong residents as a whole, that are generally 90% Chinese (value) and only 10% westernized (lifestyle only).
• All they know about China are some Chinese food, customs such as worship and traditional festivals learned from their parents who speak better Chinese.
• The Chinese tradition they know about, depend on the time their ascendants left China.
• They know next to nothing about modern mainland China, or Hong Kong, or Taiwan. Nor can they think about any cultural differences between the northern Chinese, and the southern Chinese.
• Most Singaporeans came from southern China hundreds of years ago.
• Singaporeans men are very proud of themselves. A man can be very fuzzy when it comes to choose a Singaporean girl for wife. He would seriously consider marrying to westerners, given that she and her family are worth him.
• Singaporean girls think Singaporean men are snobs. They would marry them anyway.
• Singaporean men do think like western men. In the event a man’s girlfriend dump him for another man, he is likely to take it well.
• Singaporeans look down on Chinese mainlanders and normally would not consider marrying them, because they think the latter marry for money.
• Singaporeans never noticed the hundreds of thousands of those good-natured, hard-working mainlanders who would do anything for them in return, if the Singaporeans just treat them like human. Chinese elites only look up.
• Singaporeans never noticed the thousands of cultivated Chinese mainlanders from well-educated families of many generations, which would make most of the Singaporeans sound like half-illiterate. The Chinese intellectuals were prosecuted and oppressed by the government because they have independent thought, and most importantly, they would rather die than abandon the truth, unlike most of the rest of the Chinese, who take survival of themselves and their descendants their priority.
• Singaporeans know very little about the “rich and influenced” mainlanders who come from “red families”. Their grandparents killed millions of Chinese best businessmen, farmers and intellectuals, confiscated those victims assets, put in their own pockets, prevent the victims’ children from receiving higher education or employment (to stop them from revenge in the future).
• What Singaporeans don’t know is that the red families loath all “capitalists” in the world, as the “capitalists” always do better in most aspects (intelligence, diligence, morality) than the “proletarian” (that is the red families at the beginning).

2. Malaysia
• Generally speaking, Chinese mainlanders know very little about Malaysian Chinese, as the latter despise the former. Malaysian government used to impose racial discrimination policies against Chinese. Many of them often wish that they were not Chinese. The rest of time they have to admit that they are Chinese, because they are being very Chinese in many ways.
• They can hardly read Chinese, even if they speak fluently. Most of them are not proficient in English either.
• Malaysian Chinese look up to Hong Kong culture, though, wishing they could make friends with them. They think Hong Kong stands for wealth, modern society and liberty.
• However, Malaysian Chinese don’t like talking about Singaporeans, as both parties admit that Singaporeans are somehow superior.
• Most Malaysian Chinese came from villages in south China hundreds of years ago. Compare with the Singaporeans, the Malaysian Chinese are deeply influenced by the Chinese rural customs and culture even they live in Malaysian cities and go to English schools.
• Malaysian Chinese women are known to many as the “best wives and mothers according to Chinese traditional value”. They have all the good “qualities” as rural Chinese female, and Muslin female.
• Neither Singaporean nor Malaysian Chinese males have much access to prostitutes or mistresses, compare with those from mainland, Hong Kong, Taiwan.
• Many of them are the descendants of the Hakka ethnic. They expect women to do everything (work and housework), unlike the rest of the Chinese, while women can still choose to work or stay at home (housewives). Malaysian Chinese men expect women to give/earn them money. They’d love to spend women’s money. In the rest part of the Chinese community, no man can bear the idea that he has to live on his wife’s income, even if he is disable.
• Malaysian Chinese men are generally good husbands and fathers. Their marriages generally last long and stable until the men have affairs, when they decide to marry the younger girls.
• There are many stories about Malaysian Chinese men killing their wives after the husbands have secret affairs. The man often takes action fast and quick, without anyone noticing, with a method to make it look like natural death.
• Another way to take everything from the marriage is to talk to everyone he knows, about his wife going mad. This way people believe he should be in charge of everything No one would listen to his wife’s story.
• Those immigrated into western countries may find it difficult to kill his wife or prove she is mental. Husbands soon find out the law in terror: Wives are entitled to half of the family assets, if not more. These men often choose to live with the wives, tread them nicely, like nothing had happened.
• Men do this for saving money for divorce settlement. They need the money for their new families.

3. Thailand
• Thai Chinese men are extremely humble and polite.
• They usually have religious believes that make them being afraid of doing wrong things that causes Karma.
• However, that does not stop them chasing pretty girls, having affairs after marriage.
• Thai females go extra miles to make themselves look pretty, young and fashionable.


4. Vietnam
• The Vietnamese Chinese keep a distance with the Vietnamese back in Vietnam. They think the latter are too easy to get into fighting. The Vietnam Chinese prefer reading good books, learning new job skills, working hard, saving money, raising families, and buying properties.
• Most of them came out from south China hundreds of years ago.
• Many of them open auto repair business. They are usually honest and professional. They charge very reasonable price.
• You may find nearly all Vietnamese Chinese capable of speaking Chinese Mandarin, Chinese Cantonese, another Chinese dialect from his hometown, English, French, and often another language.
• The Vietnamese Chinese adore ancient Chinese culture and literature. They want to learn more about it. The Vietnamese Chinese like Chinese mainlanders, especially if they are educated.
• They don’t like Hong Kong people, thinking they are not kind to the less fortunate, and that they don’t appreciate knowledge.
• There are stories of marriage going sour with Vietnamese Chinese men. For example, husband lures the wife borrowing a business loan from the bank for his own business using her own name, transfers all the assets to his mistress (which is his secretary), declares bankruptcy, files a divorce paper, leaving the wife a loan and all the children. Family violence often is involved.
• Wives gone though family crisis usually share the same symptom: they all develop mental illness, a real one.
• The Vietnamese Chinese man in such case, however, never explains what happened to his marriage.